Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

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why people compare pheromosa to deoxys so much? just cause of high attack and low defenses?
And the speed. 151 is absurdly fast, most people don't have a choice scarf user that goes that fast. In a meta where 110 is considered fast, and 120 is considered great, 151 just blows it it out of the water. Unlike Deoxys however, Phero gets dual STAB and Beast Boost. Unlike Deoxys however, Phero does not have the coverage options Deoxys did.
 
I'm glad to see Lando go. A cool side effect of Lando-I leaving is that Lando-T becomes more common. I wasn't having as much trouble with Lando-I this gen as in the beginning of genVI but that's mostly because of my heavy celesteela use which dealt with most sets.

I'd encourage y'all to go very easy on the OU Council as this was an EZPZ decision compared to some of the bans in previous metas. What Clair suggested is definitely true: these things can be reintroduced later if it's pressing (it won't be IMO). Seth_ pointed out that Lando got a switch in in celesteela: this doesn't change the fact that the new gen also brought tons of things that Lando absolutely destroys.

I'm excited to see where the meta progresses: I see a lot more super-volt-turn psy spam in my future.
 

HailFall

my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
Phero needs to go next for sure. The way it restricts teambuilding is incredibly cancerous, forcing you to choose one of 4 pokemon for an answer. 1 of these is extremely prone to being worn down (alowak) while 2 others are incredibly passive pokemon that dont really have any place on offensive teams. Its insane speed lets it outpace even some scarfers, and its really just an unreasonable pokemon to counter. it absolutely invalidates most offenses and forces them to run buzzwole if they really want a reliable answer. It just comes in again and again even if you have prio to revenge kill it (it just switches out), and you cant even resort to something like trapping as it laughs in the face of every legal trapper. Its just too good at this point. Too few answers, too restricting on building, too fast. It needs to go asap to make the tier more playable.

edit: phero doesnt have the coverage options deo did but it honestly doesnt need them. it stomps everything except for a select few pkmn with simple 4 move coverage and just u turns on all its checks.
 
I was trying Z-Memento and Mega Gyarados because of how amazing Z-Memento could open up set up opportunities and I found myself needing a stallbreaker.

Naturally, I choose CM Landorus.

I know it wasn't a popular set, but what does stall have for Z-Memento + CM Landorus? Literally nothing. CM Landorus already invalidates stall, espec with some of its main counters being either really bad or not available, and using it with Z-Memento just let me play with CM Landorus aggressively: set up CM and break 1-2 stallmons, usually the counter mons, swap out before dying, Z-Memento back to Landorus mid game, and literally clean up for free.

It was so dirty and easy. I don't think genesect can invalidate any playstyle like that to the degree of Landorous. Only Phermosa comes close, but since it is a new pokemon, I can see why the council would wait on its suspect / not quickbanned.
Does z-memento heal status? Cause if it doesn't heal status i would say z-parting shot is a better option
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
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Yeah as much as I dislike Pheromosa's impact on the metagame Landorus-I should have definitely been next in line to get the boot. Nothing has really changed in the meta to make Landorus less broken, and like many of already said, this gen seemed to bring more things that lost to Landorus anyway. Pheromosa isn't something OU is used to dealing with but Landorus is, and when something has remained unchanged since gen 6 as an incredible wallbreaker with practically zero switch-ins and the ability to plow through offense with Rock Polish, why should we even give it the time of day? Keeping Landorus around longer was just a waste of our time, it didn't deserve a suspect at all considering that there's no real way to defend it staying in OU when its impact was exactly the same as it was in XY if not worse. You gotta remember last gen we had some crazy shit running around, aka Mega Kanga, Gengar, Deo-S, and Lucario, which kept Landorus under the radar for a bit. Outside of Aegislash and Zygarde-C, Landorus stands out like a sore thumb this generation because all the new controversial Pokemon we have right now are not as blatantly broken as Landorus, bar maybe Pheromosa, but at least that thing actually has reliable counters as well as a few bad match ups whereas Lando didn't really have that issue. Pheromosa deserves more of a chance than something that has already been tested for the last 3 gens and still remains as dumb as ever. Banning Lando next was the best decision, and I think it's absurd that people are giving the council so much flack.
 

Shurtugal

The Enterpriser.
is a Tiering Contributor
Does z-memento heal status? Cause if it doesn't heal status i would say z-parting shot is a better option
It heals status on PS.

Seamus Eso

Landorus-I CM still invalidates stall even without Z-Memento, I was just using an example of how mindless and easy it was to pair it with z-memento. Landorus is a pokemon with solid bulk, a pretty good speed tier, and great versatility with rock Polish for offense calm mind for stall and uturn / rocks slide / stealth rock / knock off / etc amazing movepool coverage for literally anything else. Mega Latias and Cresselia are absent, and many more things were introduced that are simply destroyed by Landorus. no one is denying that landorus isn't broken or that it doesn't have its flaws but it is stupidly good at what it does. the ou council highlighted all of this in their explanation in their reason to ban Landorus.

EDIT:

Landorus is a lot like Pheromosa in a sense.

Pheromosa has a plethora of counters in the form of Toxapex, Tapu Bulu (to some extent), Marowak, Mantine, etc. that allow fatter teams to not struggle against it so much. However, its easily spammable U-Turn allows it to pressure any of its would-be counters, its movepool is just ridiculous enough to cover just the right threats (if it didn't have Ice Beam / Poison Jab it might not be so ridiculous, seeing as how Land-T Tapu Fini etc. could potentially wall it), and it can play with either LO or Scarf. Beast Boost can make LO immune to Scarf Revenge killing, which is one of the things that really pushes it for me. Scarf is the most reliable way for offense teams to revenge kills since Psychic Terrain & Gale Wings nerf really hurt priority this generation.

Pheromosa can be OK against fat teams, but its the ability to invalidate offense that really makes it ban-worthy.

It is the same regard for Landorus: it is OK against offense teams, its stellar bulk, U-Turn, sizeable movepool, access to Rocks make it a decent mon vs offensive teams, but its ability to invalidate stall and fat teams is what makes it ban-worthy.

(You mention Bulu as a counter, but it gets Sludge Wave; Celesteela as a counter, but +1 FB can 2HKO, plus it gets access to Gravity, etc. etc. -- sure it has 4MMS, but the fact that it is so versatile puts the favor on the Landorus's side and forces the balance / stall user to run 2-3 things specifically for one pokemon because of its *potential* sets... I don't think it creates skill when it puts that much pressure on the teambuilding process.

Ugh I could keep going on, but tl;tr Landorus was going to get banned eventually, and I respect the OU Council's decision to ban it now.)
 
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Something a little unconventional that I've found deals with most of the Tapus (bar Lele, although it can potentially get an OHKO on the switch in) quite well. It also can deal with Marowak-A, Heatran, and a few other key threats.

Arbok @ Black Sludge
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Coil
- Gunk Shot
- Earthquake
- Sucker Punch

A few relevant calcs based on the set.

4 Atk Arbok Gunk Shot vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 288-338 (102.1 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Arbok: 173-204 (53.3 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Arbok: 142-168 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

+1 4 Atk Arbok Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 396-468 (102.5 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Arbok: 166-196 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Arbok: 151-178 (46.6 - 54.9%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

4 Atk Arbok Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tapu Bulu: 360-424 (104.6 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

4 Atk Arbok Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tapu Fini: 180-212 (52.3 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 4 Atk Arbok Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tapu Fini: 270-318 (78.4 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4 Atk Arbok Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tapu Lele: 236-278 (68.6 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 4 Atk Arbok Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tapu Lele: 354-416 (102.9 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
I must have missed a good chunk of the prior conversation, but in regards to Tapu Lele; why are there players calling it to be banned or suspected? I can see why it's good with great typing, ability that makes priority moves useless, solid stats, and good coverage. But what makes this broken in OU?
 
I must have missed a good chunk of the prior conversation, but in regards to Tapu Lele; why are there players calling it to be banned or suspected? I can see why it's good with great typing, ability that makes priority moves useless, solid stats, and good coverage. But what makes this broken in OU?
I'd like to think that a lot of players feel as though all of those things combined make it too centralizing, but I personally haven't had too much trouble with it. It may be powerful but 75 defense is hardly groundbreaking, and its STABs aren't impossible to deal with.
 
Celesteela would be a good counter to Landorus if:

1) SpDef variants weren't still cleanly 3HKO'd by Focus Blast.
2) Celesteela had Roost or recovery of some kind outside of Leech Seed and leftovers.
3) It didn't get autofucked by Magnezone.

Landorus is just one of many broken Pokemon that were in the tier and I'm not sorry at all to see it leave. If we can get rid of Pheromosa and possibly Greninja next the tier will be in much better shape when UU Beta starts.
 
So, I haven't really dived into the new metagame, yet (mostly because I haven't finished playing through Sun and Moon.) It is also pretty daunting, but I think if I put together some of my old teams and just experiment with some strategies, it should be interesting to see how these things fall into place. Also, I am interested to see how Z-Moves will make their presence shown in the Metagame.
 
just because it wasn't phero doesn't mean its a reason to bitch about the ou council and their tiering policy

to said people: have you considered that they're trying to give newly introduced mons more time in the tier before having a knee jerk reaction and immediately banning them? and do you also realise how many people are overrating the living shit out of phero, it's still broken but you can't seriously tell anybody that banning lando-i was a shitty decision.

lando has a good 2 gens of use which can attest to its absurd brokenness, phero has a whopping 4 weeks of use, there's a big difference.

Lando-I has existed in this meta just as long as Pheromosa, and we're really not concerned about his interactions in XY, and DEFINITELY not in Bw2. Why? Well for one, apparently Lando-I wasn't absurdly broken enough in XY to warrant a ban at all. At the time, Landorus was THE stupidest thing stall could ever have to face. Secondly, Landorus-I gained issues in this gen named Mantine and Celesteela. Tapu Bulu teams could effectively send out a mid-tier pseudo EQ resist. The checks that it had banned away last gen (scarf Gene, Gren in general) returned. And apparently it's not a case of checking broken with broken because as of so far it looks like the council is determining at least one to stay.

The thing is, this decision IS knee jerk from the council. November 29th was Aegi's ban, December 10th Lando-i's. If you're wondering how Lando functions in a meta that has given him checks and counters that didn't exist in ORAS, that's not a long enough time. Particularly after any ban of Aegislash, the meta takes TIME to develop, due to how different it is with and without aegi. In their tiering post, they mention Mantine once, Celesteela none, and no mention to the issue of low speed as it's 'covered in rock polish'. Sure, Landorus is versatile. It's picking up checks and counters for every one of the moves it switches though, and this gen I had felt that stall finally had a good enough grasp to take on Landorus-i and make it at least fair.

I still see no justifiable reason to not suspect it at MINIMUM to how they did for Gengar-M and Khan-M. And SPL honestly isn't a good enough reason.
 
I need to throw down a little rage here over a Pokemon I was personally excited for to have a wonderful niche; Togedemaru. Iron Barbs, access to Spiky Shield, Nuzzle, relatively fast, awesome typing in Electric / Steel, a cool exclusive move in Zing Zap which is basically an Electric type Iron Head, along with access to both U-turn, and Volt Switch, and also oddly Encore, and Wish. Wanna know why I can't use it? Disappointing speed, and literally no Steel type STAB. This Pokemon would be absolutely wonderful in OU if it just got a measly 4 more speed and access to Iron Head for double flinch STAB coverage with Zing Zap. But nope, it's stuck at that frustrating 96 speed tier. Yeah it can still nail things on the switch in, and it has a respectable Attack stat, but come on. This just hurt me, this just hurt me something fierce.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned deucer.
It has a lot of problems man, the only weak new mon added that could make it is shiinotic, it's stats other than SpA are below average, but it's move pool is just enough to make it work.

Hazard stacking isn't big enough to make it ou where it can force a lot of switches with spore, leech seed and sap strength and stay healthy
 
It has a lot of problems man, the only weak new mon added that could make it is shiinotic, it's stats other than SpA are below average, but it's move pool is just enough to make it work.

Hazard stacking isn't big enough to make it ou where it can force a lot of switches with spore, leech seed and sap strength and stay healthy
Honestly if Togedemaru had that extra 4 speed and Iron Head I still feel it would have had more viability than Shiinotic, as is I don't think Shiinotic is gonna get higher than RU because that base 60 HP stat is absolutely terrible, and there's not much reason to run it over Amoonguss because of that (it has similar defenses, similar movepool but also 114 base HP to add onto those similar defenses.) Strength Sap is the only thing Shiinotic has going for it while Togedemaru at least still has additional options.
 
just because it wasn't phero doesn't mean its a reason to bitch about the ou council and their tiering policy

to said people: have you considered that they're trying to give newly introduced mons more time in the tier before having a knee jerk reaction and immediately banning them? and do you also realise how many people are overrating the living shit out of phero, it's still broken but you can't seriously tell anybody that banning lando-i was a shitty decision.

lando has a good 2 gens of use which can attest to its absurd brokenness, phero has a whopping 4 weeks of use, there's a big difference.
People were literally saying that they understood the council was trying to give new mons a chance before they were given the boot. Did you not see that? People aren't arguing that banning Lando I was a bad decision. They're speaking up becasue people feel there are more busted attackers in the tier (hoopa) and that he was quick-banned at a time that seems premature. The whole "two gens of precedence" doesn't really work IMO becasue things change a lot each gen and using a mon's brokenness in a previous gen is hardly a legitimate justification to attribute how broken it is in the current gen, especially after only 4 weeks.
 
Obvious bias aside, if you want to run Lele+MegaZam use Taunt+3 attacks Lele, preferably with Terrain Extender. Zams's draw isn't only dodging priority for 2 turns, it's that+dishing out strong ass Psychics. Lele's job as an attacker is to dent Celestela, MZor, Chansey etc enough so can they don't have enough healthy to take on MegaZam. If used correctly, not only you'll gain a very strong match up vs Stall (providing you have other breakers to deal with scenarios that involve Duggy and stuff) but also can get you a couple of extra kills with Zam at the final few turns of the game while dodging revenge kills from priority. And run Modest Zam, no point using Timid atm.

And people complaining about Lele, learn to use bulky steel types and physical attackers.
"Why don't you git gud and learn 2 run bulky steels!" Ya that'd work if it weren't for the fact that anyone above anything as low as 1300 on the ladder is smart enough to pair Scarf Magnezone (who is soooooooo good in this meta) with Lele so that you CAN'T EVEN switch your bulky steels in (except heatran and excadrill ig) lest they get Magnet Trapped and killed and now you're SOL for the rest of the match as Lele and the pokemon its terrain enables can run rampant on your team.

Which is my main problem with Lele right now, its a great but counterable pokemon on its own but the terrain it sets up also allows it to give great support to other powerful shit. Which makes Lele a great wallbreaker and support pokemon who can way too easily be paired with other Pokemon putting them over the edge to broken.

The terrains in general really change teambuilding for me because I now have to be able to check X fast pokemon without priority or X ground weak pokemon knowing grassy terrain could make that ground move easily spongable. They just throw things slightly off balance enough to really fuck up battles and I'm surprised pseudo terrain-teams haven't become a more ubiquitous archetype because they are basically weather teams without the homogeny.
 
Shiinotic have a niche as a rain counter max hp/sp.def With rain dish can take on kingdra, A-raichu and special tapu koko with some ease, strenght sap allow you to beat dugtrio and physicall koko, so i Guess that this thing is going to have a niche since rain + eletric terrain is a thing right now.(i know most teams carry a steel type, but being able to beat 4 mons on a team is huge)
 
Notice that A-Raichu and Shiinotic are "unviable". You can use them, but in general they're not good and shouldn't be used once there's a proper UU metagame. There's a ladder where you can use them, although Electric terrain has to be activated "manually".

Landorus-I... when I saw that Landorus was the 6th Pokemon overall and the 4th Pokemon that is not Pheromosa and Aegislash, I knew that it isn't. alsting long in OU, although I think that Pheromosa.
 

Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Thunderbolt
- Will-O-Wisp

Don't know if it has been mentioned much yet, but I'm loving Rotom-W right now. I put it on a team with an A-Golem and a Tapu Bulu to help them with Water and Fire respectively, while also providing a great quad-resist to Steel. What I have found is that for people who aren't packing a Grass type, this thing immediately becomes a major problem. And even if they are, it's likely a Tapu Bulu that probably gets burned by Will-O on the switch, making it severely less useful. Magnezone struggles to break through it as well, which makes this a great mon to double into if you're running a prominent or win-con Steel type. M-Scizor hates this thing, especially when burned. Hail teams struggle with it, especially if A-Sandslash gets burned.

The biggest thing though might be how well it counters the ever-popular A-Marowak. It resists Fire hits, doesn't mind being burned, is immune to Ground coverage, and hits it super effectively with Hydro Pump. I've also found it partners well with Z-Fly Lando-T, as it resists Ice and Water hits and can slow Volt into Lando-T's Intimidate and possibly set-up a knockout on the subsequent turn with Z-Fly. All-in-all, Rotom-W has an insane amount of resists and works very well in a Steel-heavy meta where Bulu is the primary Grass-type of choice. It also pairs well with one's own Steel types with a Fire resist, Ground immunity, and burning capability.

Below is a short replay (15 turns) of Rotom-W in action
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-494975608
 
Notice that A-Raichu and Shiinotic are "unviable". You can use them, but in general they're not good and shouldn't be used once there's a proper UU metagame. There's a ladder where you can use them, although Electric terrain has to be activated "manually".
Am I missing something here? Did the Electric Surge/Surge Surfer combo get banned? How is Alolan Raichu unviable in a meta where Tapu Koko is number 1 in usage? That'd be like Kingdra being unviable in a metagame where Politoed is everywhere (and the Swift Swim combo is legal). Tapu Koko is already stupidly good, and Alolan Raichu effectively forms a double type core to spam down their checks, and he has coverage that does pretty damn well against a lot of those options, with Grass Knot, Psychic for Poison types, Surf for Rain, and Focus Blast for Ttar and such. Alolan Raichu might be in a better place than Kingdra in that regard, since he's fast enough to function without the Terrain, he and Koko can both be Volt-Turners, and Rain's always an option to shit on Alolan Marowak. Is it because the Tapus are all fighting for Terrain or something?

And at the risk of continuing the Pheromosa debate, I think its presence is yet another reason everyone's getting on Tapu Lele's case. Pheoromosa forces the metagame to speed up to have counterplay, or bulk up noticeably if they can't go fast enough (having a higher speed than Scarfers while still being able to use a Scarf can make that the case). In the latter case (and very often even in the former), the most reliable response would be priority for Pheromosa and for the things trying to keep up with it... which Tapu Lele shuts down thanks to Psychic Surge. Now consider the synergy these two have on a macro level: Pheromosa absolutely devours any form of offense, and Tapu Lele can hit at comparable levels to Gardevoir between Terrain and an item slot, which means it devours the stall/bulky teams that might be able to fight Pheromosa. The two have complementary roles even before considering the finer traits like Psychic Terrain or type Synergy (Pheromosa smacks Steel Types hard, the one thing that walls Tapu Lele's STABs).

The question for that then becomes "who do we suspect first" (assuming neither is quickban worthy), but I think most would say Pheromosa is the more unhealthy presence if only one can go. Landorus's Quickban seems like it would be based on comparing "is it doing what it did last time we decided it should be banned", and if we're bringing past gen experience into play with him the case once again favors a Pheromosa suspect. Pheromosa (on a surface level) is comparable to Deoxys-N, something we have never even deemed worth TRYING to seriously bring back into OU, while Lele (again, on a surface level), is a special Wallbreaker akin to the likes of Mega Gardevoir. The former is very reasonably compared to something we don't want back, while the latter COULD be a broken version of something we have, but we haven't had time to suspect it properly since the Metagame still hasn't reformed post Aegislash and because there are too many problems running around.

I have my grievances with the reintroduction system for new gens for this reason: potentially problematic mons have their usage chalked up partially to new toy syndrome, most of the re-introductions end up going again anyway, and eyes are on them to go while we have to wait for the game to keep "resettling" before suspecting something else. It's akin to chemically testing reactions by throwing all the volatile elements into the vat at once rather than testing them in a safe and "controlled" (for lack of a better term) environment.

And for people citing that Pheromosa needs time for us to determine if it's a bad presence, I just want to note: how long was Mega Salamence around compared to how long it was unanimously declared unhealthy for OU and kicked up to his throne in Ubers? If Pheromosa looks stupidly controlling on week 1, the problem's only going to be exacerbated when everyone starts running or prepping for it in Week 2, which leaves plenty of evidence for it to go in Week 3, frankly 2 weeks late.
 
The question for that then becomes "who do we suspect first" (assuming neither is quickban worthy), but I think most would say Pheromosa is the more unhealthy presence if only one can go. Landorus's Quickban seems like it would be based on comparing "is it doing what it did last time we decided it should be banned", and if we're bringing past gen experience into play with him the case once again favors a Pheromosa suspect. Pheromosa (on a surface level) is comparable to Deoxys-N, something we have never even deemed worth TRYING to seriously bring back into OU, while Lele (again, on a surface level), is a special Wallbreaker akin to the likes of Mega Gardevoir. The former is very reasonably compared to something we don't want back, while the latter COULD be a broken version of something we have, but we haven't had time to suspect it properly since the Metagame still hasn't reformed post Aegislash and because there are too many problems running around.

I have my grievances with the reintroduction system for new gens for this reason: potentially problematic mons have their usage chalked up partially to new toy syndrome, most of the re-introductions end up going again anyway, and eyes are on them to go while we have to wait for the game to keep "resettling" before suspecting something else. It's akin to chemically testing reactions by throwing all the volatile elements into the vat at once rather than testing them in a safe and "controlled" (for lack of a better term) environment.

And for people citing that Pheromosa needs time for us to determine if it's a bad presence, I just want to note: how long was Mega Salamence around compared to how long it was unanimously declared unhealthy for OU and kicked up to his throne in Ubers? If Pheromosa looks stupidly controlling on week 1, the problem's only going to be exacerbated when everyone starts running or prepping for it in Week 2, which leaves plenty of evidence for it to go in Week 3, frankly 2 weeks late.

A few notes

1. We actually did try bringing Deo-N down last gen, along with Blazekin. The biggest difference between phero and Deo-N is that Deo-N had a significantly more versatile movepool (no, seriously, it had access to every coverage move it could possibly want on both sides of the attacking spectrum, hazards, and taunt), while phero has u-turn. While Deo-N is a useful comparison for the purposes of discussing Phero, it should not be used as a 1 to 1 reference.

2. Please, please please for the love of Arceus stop comparing potentially broken mons to Mega-mence. Mega-mence has been in the top 3 most powerful pokemon in ubers since release, only surpassed by primal Groundon and Mega-Rayquaza. It's legitimately more broken then crap like Skymin, Deo-A, Mega-Kang, and Giratina-O, let alone the recent two quick bans and certainly moreso then anything in the current OU meta. Trying to compare any OU mon to Mega-Mence is gross hyperbole and only serves to weaken your argument.

In case anyone reading this post never had the reason why mega-mence was so broken, it basically boiled down to finding numerous setup opportunities due to base form having intimidate, enough physical bulk in mega form to eat any form of priority short of mamoswine's ice shard, was fast enough to outspeed virtually every scarfer at +1 and hit like a truck with an effective 150 BP flying STAB with no drawbacks off of a very solid attack stat. It had reliable recovery off of roost, and could troll status abusers with subs/refresh. Nothing that has ever been OU before or since has come close to comparing to megamence, and that includes Deo-N, Giratina-O, and anything and everything introduced in gen 7.
 
I would like to point out in regards to Alolan-Raichu that it's actually a nice lure for a multitude of Ground type Pokemon due to it getting access to Surf (so many OHKOs on Lando-T's switching in, I don't even know where to begin). I think despite its underwhelming physical Defense and mediocre Special Attack, it has a solid place in OU due to its arguably better typing, nice STAB combination, great movepool (not just coverage wise, but also due to access to tools like Nasty Plot), and high speed with its niche ability Surge Surfer being very abusable due to the ridiculously high presence of Tapu Koko.
 
Celesteela would be a good counter to Landorus if:

1) SpDef variants weren't still cleanly 3HKO'd by Focus Blast.
2) Celesteela had Roost or recovery of some kind outside of Leech Seed and leftovers.
3) It didn't get autofucked by Magnezone.

Landorus is just one of many broken Pokemon that were in the tier and I'm not sorry at all to see it leave. If we can get rid of Pheromosa and possibly Greninja next the tier will be in much better shape when UU Beta starts.
You know what's probability of hitting 3 fb? 34% Any other moves don't even scratch celesteela.

Magnezone is autofucked by dugtrio. Poor argument.

Lando is still broken mon, but celesteela is fine switch in.
 
Magnezone is autofucked by dugtrio. Poor argument.
Unless double switch is involved, it will probably get the job of getting rid of Celesteela done, so yeah.
Also, Volt Switch.

That doesn't mean Celesteela is still a poor switch in against Lando though; it's one of the best.

On another subject, i feel Breloom is just as effective as ever now. Although there's many things that that walls it, Spore is still as terrific as ever to face (especially with many slower mons we have now), Bullet Seed hits pretty damn hard (if it happens that Grassy Terrain is active, it hits actually harder than even Tapu Bulu... with some luck of course), and powerful priority is as good as ever.
With that said, Swords Dance is bad. Just run Rock Tomb; hits pretty mach anything that thinks it can resist the Grass/Fighting combo pretty hard.


Makes a pretty nice combo with Magnezone... but let's be honest, Magnezone now is pretty much good to combo with pretty much anything lol
 
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